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Talk:Zorzal El Caesar/@comment-29135336-20170814173240/@comment-27963781-20170817174501
@Tomtheman99 U missing my point by miles. And I was surprise that in your long argument, U insist that zorzal and his generals never try to learn and adapt, but your argument actually full of examples where they try to adapt and learn. 1. Let’s start with the spy incident first. What U were referring is one incident at conference. However before it, there is already scene where Zorzal receiving report from spy deliver by Tyuule, so he already have spy before then. And after the incidents his spy network isn’t collapse, because he still receiving info after the conference. There is scene where he receive info about Pina reform policy sometimes after the conference. 2. U demand a 100% understanding of the enemy? 100%? Really? Nobody in the world can understand 100% of their enemy, that is a fact. If u expecting 100% understanding then all military in the world is must be a fool by your standard. Zorzal and his general while not 100% understand war capabilities, he and his general still understand the fundamental of the battle, their own weakness and how powerful their enemy is and then try to address their problem. 3. How can u think zorzal never try to learn and adapt his tactics against modern weapons? ''' Switching from direct confrontation is a proof that they try to adapt. Trying to create counter measure for modern weapons is a sign that they are learning. If they never learn, they still fight in open battle like in the first time they attack Japan. But they don't because they learn from their past mistake. I'm actually baffle on how u still insist that Zorzal and his generals never try to learn or improve their tactics. Because all your argument is actually pointing out their efforts to adapt and improve their situation. Sure the result is bad, but they keep improving to the point they make counter measure against helicopter and tank. And that is progress!!! Also I doubt he order his man to march to be killed by JSDF senselessly, because in the last time I read the light novel, he actually order the evacuation of his force from cities he know it can't be defended. Granted I have not read all of the light novel. '''4. 'Scorched-earth policy and flase flag operation is not foolish.' To begin wih its still use now in modern age. U can see it in Myanmar and Sudan at massive effectiveness and cruelty. Sure its fail in the story as what Zorzal do is always fail. But it’s also proof that he try a different approach to fight modern military. Another proof that he try to adapt, by employing new strategy. And while it fail to stop JSDF, it cement his reputation as ruthless that scare many other nations from joining the conflict and decided to stay neutral, so even then there is a positive result. 5. In fact none of his failure efforts should make him to be called idiot. What he do is called "try and error". There is no strategy for medieval military against modern military, so he try to invent them. Again adapting by learning and trial. This is like scientific project. And let's not deny that he create some result (inflicting casualty), regardless it’s in very high cost. And yes I know he was defeated in the end. But considering at the start of the story Empire never success to inflict any casualty to the final battle where they bring down helicopter with chain, I say they improve by A LOT. 6. Why u assume Zorzal and his general think fighting rifle with sword is a good idea. Because if anything they actually against it and their tactics to avoid frontal attack show this. ''' To begin with they all witness firsthand how deadly that was. That is why they decide to do guerrilla warfare, use assassins and false flag operation. They don't want to die. '''7. While Zorzal anti modern weapons indeed stupid, is there any real chance for him to obtain (stole) or buy it like your example of Native American Indian? Yes, he view is stupid, but is there any chance he can obtain it to begin with? If not then that is your answer. Why u blame him for not using something that impossible for him to obtain. Is his situation will be any different if he wishing a modern weapon but still can’t obtain it? No as the situation will be just the same. If anything he creating a counter measure against modern weapons make up for his foolishness. 8. Actually my example in modern world and other comic is very relevant and I specially pick it up just for U. U just fail to understand it and more focus to tech gap. ' If U can recognize the effort of Joker and Lex Luthor in studying the Justice League weakness, why do u not recognize the effort that Zorzal and his general made on facing JSDF? Because the similarity is many. They fighting near impossible enemy, try create some scheme and eventually defeated. Many goons and empire soldiers’ dies fighting the good guys. It's the same thing but U ignore Zorzal efforts. The same with Ukraine, because u so fixed that any effort against JSDF is foolish and defeat is certain, why even try. So I pick Ukraine to show u that even the effort is meaningful regardless the result. It's about technology gap that u think (and obsess), because I more focus on the struggle. The effort and willingness to fight unwinnable foe. Ukrainian try to invent many strategy to win, but was defeated in the end. Just like zorzal. So again u miss the point if u only see on tech gap, because both example is proof they are trying and failing doesn't make them an idiot. Because that is your main argument “Try to fight and fail make someone an idiot”, which is not true. '''9. I honestly can't believe that u try to make Pina is doing a Meiji restoration. ' It’s insanely different. To begin with, Japan modernize to prevent turn into a colony by the western power. Pina on other hand turn the government into a "Yes Japan" team, there will be no modernization after that. Second Meiji is modernize by trade with multiple nations. Empire have little to trade off because all of their resources already on demand list from Japan surrender term. So with what they will finance their modernization? And with only Japan they have little bargain power. In fact how exactly they can modernize when the empire government is a "Yes Japan" team? If anything Japan will stop any modernization to guarantee their supremacy. Remember that it’s already stated multiple time that Japan aim is total monopoly and the resources of the new world. Even Gate 2 : Weight Anchor set 4 year after the first series ended, open with narrative where Japan preserving their monopoly. So Pina plan is actually a disaster for the empire, but why do she cares as her objective is "fine art". '''10. But just for U, let say that is what Pina aim. A modern Empire, so does her action support that aim? No. because she actually can do better and when there is a better way, its mean she is doing the stupid way. To begin with she doesn’t need to help the JSDF infiltrate the capital. Why let foreign soldier enter your own capital. THAT IS STUPID. If negotiation go bad, you will have enemy in your capital. Second she think her experience in Japan is too absurd to believe, she is very wrong. Not only she have more witness at that point, she also have POW list and actually can bring Japan envoy to meet the emperor directly. Nobody will ever doubt her with all of that. Third do she actually need to help Japan to bribe and coerce her own nation officials? No. As I said before she have enough proofs to convince them to stop fighting. And with government free from Japan influence, it’s actually possible for empire to modernize. A government that is controlled by foreign power will not serve the interest of its own and will obey foreign power. Do you really expect Japan will give up their influence after the war? Highly unlikely. So where is Pina common sense or rationality? Because the only thing I see is useful idiots that turn her own nation into a colony. 11. Because u use quotes from character I’m starting to think u take character opinion and story narrative as fact that in most case is untrue. Is there any villain in comic that was never been called as dumb, stupid, idiot or worse by the hero? It’s the same case in this story, zorzal is always called as an idiot by the good guys. And in the light novel its actually even worse, where the author explaining how zorzal is very idiot that I almost think he can’t even pee without hitting his legs. On the contrary the author in the light novel throw a massive flattery to whoever that helping the JSDF, regardless they actually should not help the JSDF. This actually baffling, because if u remove the narrative and examine the situation as it is u sometime see as untrue. For example the Pina was depict as benevolent princess that secure POW safety and early release when she plan to release Lord Cicero nephew. However if u remove the flatering narrative and u will only get an enemy agent forcing empire official to switch side by holding his nephew as a hostage. After all the price of his nephew return is for him to switch side and support her. Even the wiki is baffling that Im almost sure is taken from the author words from the light novel. For example: Zorzal fight against JSDF using the same tactics they use against other kingdom? Do other kingdom have rifle so the empire decide to avoid confrontation? Or have to resort to false flag operation? Pretty sure as the most powerful empire in the gate world they don’t need this kind of tactics as they can overwhelm any nations in open war. Try to exam more without the narrative and u will see that the one labeled as idiot is actually smart, while those who is labeled as smart may actually very stupid. 'Conclusion: ' I’m actually quite surprise that u wrote a very long post to explaining that zorzal and his general never try to learn and adapt while at the same time u actually wrote all of their efforts to learn and adapt. Perhaps maybe because u only want to recognize such efforts only if succeed. After all you were very focus on showing his every efforts as a failure. U also very focus on the difference in technology gap that make any effort of struggle is a waste of time and an idiot decision. Thus zorzal that try is an idiot. I on other hand have different opinion. Here is a medieval guy whole never go to school, who is fighting a modern military with century of technology gap against him. Nevertheless he try. And even if he fail in the end, in just few month he create many new strategy and last longer than anyone think he can. Plus he bring helicopter down with chain and that is a genius. 'Lastly if u still disagree with me after reading all of this, then I will respect your opinion. You after all entitle for your own view and it will be wrong for me to force my view on you. '